Chas' Compilation

A compilation of information and links regarding assorted subjects: politics, religion, science, computers, health, movies, music... essentially whatever I'm reading about, working on or experiencing in life.

Monday, September 10, 2007

The 9-11 jumpers; they didn't "jump"

This is an issue that isn't talked about a lot, because it's so unpleasant, and extremely emotional. It's about the people who supposedly "jumped" from the WTC towers before they collapsed.

So many in the media seemed to claim at the time that they were jumping out of "despair"; as if it were just an emotional response, a suicide choice; an act of will, that they could simply choose to do or not do.

That just seems like such an unfair judgment to me. I don't believe that most, if any, of those people "chose" to jump. I think SMOKE, HEAT and FLAMES simply FORCED them to their deaths by falling. You can't "choose" whether or not you want to stand close to burning jet fuel; you simply can't. If there is nowhere safe to move away to, you move anyway. Just the smoke alone, making it impossible for you to even breath... if you were suffocating, what would you do for air?

To call it jumping, like it was a choice, just seems wrong. When people went to work at the WTC that morning, they were not expecting to have to jump to their deaths. These poor souls did NOT choose this...



Last year at this time I posted a Tribute to Lorraine D. Antigua as part of the "2,996 project" to memorialize the victims of 9-11. While researching that, I read a lot about the situation of the employees at Lorraine's firm, Cantor Fitzgerald. That in turn lead to many articles about people who fell to their deaths.

It's an extremely volatile topic, that generates a wide range of reactions. It was only years after the attack occurred that many people could even begin to talk about it.

On one level I feel compelled to post on this topic because of my many years experience working in high-rise security and fire safety. Yet that experience also makes it extremely upsetting, because what the victims of the WTC attack faced before they died is... not an abstraction to me. So much of my job was about keeping people safe from those very things.

I'm going to post some links to articles that examine what happened, why people "jumped" or fell; how people have dealt with it; and why it matters.

Desperation forced a horrific decision
[...] "It took three or four to realize: They were people," says James Logozzo, who had gathered with co-workers in a Morgan Stanley boardroom on the 72nd floor of the south tower, just 120 feet away from the north tower. "Then this one woman fell."

She fell closer to the south tower, he recalls. Logozzo saw her face. She had dark hair and olive skin, a white blouse and black skirt. She fell with her back to the ground, flat, staring up.

"The look on her face was shock. She wasn't screaming. It was slow motion. When she hit, there was nothing left," Logozzo says.

[...]

USA TODAY estimates that at least 200 people jumped to their deaths that morning, far more than can be seen in the photographs taken that morning. Nearly all were from the north tower, which was hit first and collapsed last. Fewer than a dozen were from the south tower.

The jumping started shortly after the first jet hit at 8:46 a.m. People jumped continuously during the 102 minutes that the north tower stood. Two people jumped as the north tower began to fall at 10:28 a.m., witnesses said.

For those who jumped, the fall lasted 10 seconds. They struck the ground at just less than 150 miles per hour — not fast enough to cause unconsciousness while falling, but fast enough to ensure instant death on impact. People jumped from all four sides of the north tower. They jumped alone, in pairs and in groups.

Most came from the north tower's 101st to 105th floors, where the Cantor Fitzgerald bond firm had offices, and the 106th and 107th floors, where a conference was underway at the Windows on the World restaurant. Others leaped from the 93rd through 100th floor offices of Marsh & McLennan insurance company.

Intense smoke and heat, rather than flames, pushed people into this horrific choice. Flight 11 struck the 94th through 98th floors of the north tower, shooting heat and smoke up elevator shafts and stairways in the center of the building. Within minutes, it would have been very difficult to breathe. That drove people to the windows 1,100 to 1,300 feet above ground.

There were several reasons more people jumped from the north tower than from the south. The fire was more intense and compact in the north tower. The jet hit higher, so smoke was concentrated in 15 floors compared with 30 floors in the south tower, which was hit on the 78th through 84th floors. The north tower also stood longer: 102 minutes vs. 56 minutes. And twice as many people were trapped on the north tower's upper floors than in the south tower, where occupants had 161/2 minutes to evacuate before the second jet hit.

The New York medical examiner's office says it does not classify the people who fell to their deaths on Sept. 11 as "jumpers."

"A 'jumper' is somebody who goes to the office in the morning knowing that they will commit suicide," says Ellen Borakove, spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. "These people were forced out by the smoke and flames or blown out." [...]

(bold emphasis mine) Breaking the windows so they could breath also unfortunately fed the flames of the fire. An unbelievably horrific situation.












THE 9/11 JUMPERS
[...] Jack Gentual, dean of student services at the New Jersey Institute of Technology got a call from his wife Alayne who worked in the tower and was trapped on the 97th floor. "She told me smoke was coming in the room, coming through the vents, her breath was laboured ... She said to me 'I'm scared' and she wasn't a person who got scared. She said that she loved me and to tell the boys she loved them." Alayne told her husband that she was going to try to escape to the lower floors and that she would call later.

But Gentual never heard from his wife again. Her body was found on the street in front of the building across from hers. He wonders if his wife was one of the many who decided to jump. "In some ways it might just be the last elements of control. To be out of the smoke and the heat, to be out in the air...it must have felt like flying."

For those who jumped, the fall lasted about ten seconds. The jumpers hit the ground at 240 kilometres a hour. It wasn't fast enough to cause unconsciousness while falling, but ensured instant death on impact.

Witnesses there that day say there was a constant stream of jumpers over the next hour and a half. [...]
The article has a photo of Alayne Gentual.


Falling Man: the many faces of a 9/11 riddle

This is a story about the search to identify a falling man in one of the photos. People's reactions to this quest were varied and sometimes extreme. Even if you don't agree with the way some people reacted, it's not hard to understand. Everyone deals with the horror in their own way.



The Falling Man (Esquire Magazine)
[...] They jumped through windows already broken and then, later, through windows they broke themselves. They jumped to escape the smoke and the fire; they jumped when the ceilings fell and the floors collapsed; they jumped just to breathe once more before they died. They jumped continually, from all four sides of the building, and from all floors above and around the building's fatal wound. They jumped from the offices of Marsh & McLennan, the insurance company; from the offices of Cantor Fitzgerald, the bond-trading company; from Windows on the World, the restaurant on the 106th and 107th floors--the top. For more than an hour and a half, they streamed from the building, one after another, consecutively rather than en masse, as if each individual required the sight of another individual jumping before mustering the courage to jump himself or herself. One photograph, taken at a distance, shows people jumping in perfect sequence, like parachutists, forming an arc composed of three plummeting people, evenly spaced. Indeed, there were reports that some tried parachuting, before the force generated by their fall ripped the drapes, the tablecloths, the desperately gathered fabric, from their hands. They were all, obviously, very much alive on their way down, and their way down lasted an approximate count of ten seconds. They were all, obviously, not just killed when they landed but destroyed, in body though not, one prays, in soul. [...]
This articles deals in part with the same identity search story as in the story above this one, but it also has other sections dealing with various reactions by different people. It's a very contentious issue for many people.



What it was like to jump from the World Trade Center

These are photos with a question that makes a lot of people angry. Reactions to it in the comments section are mixed; some feel that it is needed to "never forget", and to galvanize our resolve in the WOT. Others feel it's morbid and in bad taste.

I think it is ALL of those things. Murdering people in terrorist acts is morbid and in the worst possible bad taste. I'd much rather think about other things. But ignoring and not dealing with things is precisely what led up to 9-11. If we can't even look at what's happened, how are we going to stop it from happening again? If we continue living in a 9-10 world, where we just refuse to look at or deal with some things, what will come next? If we can't look at the ugly truth, the whole of it, how are we going to respond to it effectively?





Related Links:

Highrise Security and our post 9-11 reality

9-11 Firemen deaths and WTC radio problems
     

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33 Comments:

At Tue Sep 18, 04:51:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Dean said...

Thank you for writing this. It has given me a new perspective on this topic. Surely it is cold comfort to think that they were forced into their choice, but it is comfort nonetheless. God bless you, America and all those who were killed on that day.

 
At Tue Sep 18, 10:48:00 PM 2007, Blogger Dee said...

I'm so glad you did a post on this. I haven't thought a lot about the jumpers but it definitely has crossed my mind on more than one occasion. When you think about it, it is obvious that the smoke and heat forced them to find refuge.

The whole concept is extremely horrifying. I also think that anyone who saw the jumpers and especially the ones that saw them land or saw them up close had to be traumatized by it.

Again, the horror that of that day was caused by an evil enemy and that enemy is the one we are fighting in the war on terror. What don't liberals get about that?

 
At Wed Sep 19, 10:32:00 AM 2007, Blogger Chas said...

It was a tough thing to post about. Even though I worked in Highrise Security for years, I have a fear of heights; this was like watching one of my worst nightmares.

There were all sorts of details I didn't talk about. One of the identified jumpers had severe asthma; he no doubt couldn't breath at all because of the thick smoke.

Some of the people who jumped had the floor beneath them literally collapsing away into the flames; their "choice" was jump into the air or fall into the flames.

Helicopter pilots circling the towers said people were crowding to broken windows for air, and some people were accidentally pushed out by people from behind who were pushing forward to get air...

All that and more are in the linked articles. As much as I hate the subject, I think it's important to bear witness to what they were forced into. May the horror of it cause us to never let it happen again.

 
At Thu Sep 20, 08:32:00 AM 2007, Blogger Timothy said...

Well done. But almost too much to fathom... So terribly sad all that happened that day.
Blessings

 
At Thu Sep 20, 08:40:00 AM 2007, Blogger benning said...

I could only read about halfway through this, Cas. It's just too ... horrific. But thanks for posting. Another thing we are supposed to forget, like the people on those planes, and the dancing Palestinians.

 
At Tue Oct 23, 12:09:00 PM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If there is anything good about this it's that these people were able to take their fate into their own hands. I would like to think that if faced with certain death that even with my fear of heights I would have the courage to choose to fly from this world rather than burn from a fire caused by such savage misguided people. I revisit stories about these folks who chose their own fate when I am feeling down about my life. It sort of makes me ashamed that I am unhappy when there is so much to live for. These folks didn't have the choice of what to do with the rest of their lives but they did have a choice of how they went out. When I look at these pictures I hope that the folks had come to peace with their decision and that maybe they did enjoy the feeling of the cool autumn air on what weatherwise was a beautiful day. I also hope they knew that their death would be so quick that they would not feel it. God bless these people.

 
At Tue Dec 25, 07:20:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have never been able to get the images of people falling out of my mind. There is some consolation that I doubt they felt anything when they hit because their death was so fast I doubt if there was even time for the pain to register. It was an act of total barbarism. Have faith that God will punish those responsible.

 
At Tue Jun 10, 07:30:00 AM 2008, Blogger Denise said...

thank you so much for writing this article. I did not think much about this until I finally had ther nerve to see the movie World Trade Center the other day. Coincidencely, I saw a story last night about the fallen man. These people did nto have a choice they did not leave work in the morning thinking I think I will jump out of my work window today. How dare people even say such a thing. I hope all of these people are at peace & we never forgot any part of the story of what happend on this day.

 
At Wed Aug 20, 11:55:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think some of them chose to commit suicide, but many were most likely forced from the fire and flames. Once the first tower went down the people in other building, may have thought it would be better to die/go into shock by jumping off rather than be crushed into dust. Anyways, peace.

 
At Sat Aug 23, 05:58:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Todd Phillips said...

"Somebody said he jumped - but we know he was pushed..."
-Hawkwind, "Highrise"

Some jumped, some simply ran away from the horrible furnace and smoke.

It really doesn't matter what you call it, most people grasp only too well the horrible situation, enough to still feel quite traumatized by the images.

I know that I still do.

 
At Sat Aug 23, 06:46:00 PM 2008, Blogger Chas said...

I wouldn't like to split hairs too much. It's perfectly possible that some people jumped out of despair of their situation. Only they know for sure.

But I am pretty sure that many, if not most, didn't have a real choice, and that probably none of them were planning to die that day when they got up in the morning and started getting ready to go to work.

The images are traumatic. They haunt me. I spent a large part of my working life in a job devoted to keeping people safe in high-rise buildings. This was a horror I never thought I would see.

 
At Tue Sep 09, 12:15:00 AM 2008, Anonymous Gavin said...

The story of those who fell to their deaths is so shocking only because it is in full view and being in Western civ we are so immune from actually seeing people die. Those who perished inside the flames and smoke and final collapse don't challenge us as much as seeing the tiny figures tumbling from a great height. Its in our face and forces us to face reality plus the full impact of what happened seven years ago.

WhitehawkStudios.com

 
At Wed Sep 10, 09:01:00 PM 2008, Blogger Gayle said...

As I stood in front of the TV that morning holding one of my 5 month old twins, I could only watch in horror and disbelief as the towers were struck and then fell. I will never forget what happened. To this day I can't speak of it for too long without crying. The faces of the people who chose to fly from the upper windows are forever burned in my memory and I can only hope that my son and daughter will never experience this kind of evil that infiltrated our world. I pray that the families of those who were lost can find peace and will know that the world will never forget.

 
At Sat Sep 13, 10:33:00 AM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I also will never forget. The horror was already unspeakable, but then to watch as people fell to the ground was an experience that chills me as much today as on September 11, 2001 when I watched it live on TV. May we continue to remember that we are a nation under God, a nation that many hate, but a nation that is always the first to reach out to others, regardless of their nationality, religion, or skin color. God bless America and let America bless God.

 
At Sun Sep 14, 06:06:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Julie Dufaj said...

I don't think it matters whether they jumped as a choice or they were forced by the smoke, fire, and heat. It wasn't suicide. It was murder. They were not guilty of anything except the desire to survive another day to see those they loved. They were us. They are us.

 
At Wed Sep 17, 07:11:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I really have to agree with Julie Dufaj. It wasn't suicide, it was murder. The images of those people falling is something I will never forget. God bless.

 
At Thu Sep 18, 11:23:00 AM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Debating about whether it's accurate to say they jumped or not, for me, misses the point.

In a video clip I have seen, a firefighter, looking up toward the towers, in a shaken voice wonders aloud, "What must it be like in there, that jumping is a preferable choice?"

I've read reports that the floor got so hot that some people were standing on their desks. I've read that the temerature in the area where the fire was exceeded 1,000 degrees CELSIUS. We can only imagine the intensity of the heat, smoke, lack of oxygen, darkness, debris (some of it likely jagged and sharp edged). What went on inside those buildings was obviously such a nightmare that jumping to their death was an easier way to go.

If I went to one of the higher floors of the Sears tower or the Empire State Building, and pressed my head against the window and looked down, I'd freak out. I don't necessarily think I'm afraid of hights, but I know if I did that my stomach would be in my throat and the back of my neck would tingle unpleasantly. I cannot imagine what it would take to get me to choose to smash that window and leap out of it, and that's why I cannot imagine how bad it really was inside the World Trade Center.

Having watched a documentary on the attack on the Pentagon, I think I may have a faint idea. The survivors I saw said that the smoke was so thick they couldn't see their hand in front of their face. They crawled along the floor just to try to find some light, because it was their only hope at finding a way out. They had to crawl over computers, office furniture, etc., and it took a long time for them to find their way out.

I've heard some speculation that some of the people who went out the windows of the World Trade Center may have done so accidentally, because they were trying to find their way out of the smoke and didn't see that the floor beneath them had ended until it was too late.

The bottom line is that it does not dehumanize or degrade these people to say they jumped. It isn't calling them suicidal to say they jumped. They were murdered, whether they jumped or not. They were not cowards just because they jumped. In fact, it took MORE courage to jump, if you ask me, in spite of the hope of relief from the heat. Seeing the ground rushing up at you at 150 mph, knowing it is not going to stop until it pulverizes you, and feeling the organs in your body gathering in the highest spot they can find as the downward velocity increases, that has to be a horror beyond expression. That's not cowardice, and there is no shame in what those people did.

Saying they jumped does not degrade them. It addresses the intensity of their suffering prior to jumping. It tells the story they are not able to tell for themselves. It vindicates them, and is a call for justice. It is refusing to sugar coat the violence that was done to them.

I find it insensitive to say they did not jump. It dismisses most of what was done to my fellow Americans. They are not responsible for what happened. It was done TO them, despite the fact that they jumped. They simply had to. And the emotional trauma that forced that choice is what bothers me most of all. Who will speak about that? Will the murderers get away with it, by having the full magnitude of the jumpers' suffering limited to just their deaths? That was merely part of it.

They jumped because they knew every aspect of the suffering that would follow was preferable to the suffering they would endure in the heat and smoke, including the realization that they were going to die, and the suffering incident to choosing whether or not to jump.

Being forced to make that decision alone is an act of torture.

 
At Thu Sep 18, 07:04:00 PM 2008, Blogger Chas said...

I find it insensitive to say they did not jump.

When I say they didn't jump, I mean it wasn't jumping in the way someone who wished to commit suicide makes a decision to climb a building and jump from it.

I've had people tell me I'm insensitive just for posting about this topic.

My feeling is, that if I, or someone I loved, were forced to make such a horrible decision, I would want my fellow countrymen to bear witness to it, not ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, just because it's just too ugly to contemplate.

I can appreciate the arguments for and against calling it jumping; I know what I meant by what I said; I'm ok with people seeing it differently.

It's not possible for us all to agree whether it was really "jumping" or not, or what exactly it means to say it was or wasn't "jumping". But we can bear witness to what happened. And I hope, be vigilant, so it never occurs again.

 
At Tue Oct 07, 07:45:00 AM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

(i'm sorry if my grammar and english is not that good but i hope you understand what i'm trying to get across)

"Debating about whether it's accurate to say they jumped or not, for me, misses the point."

Sure it 'misses the point', these people should be mourned regardless, but some people regard 'jumping' as suicide and thus unacceptable in their respective religions. but these people for the most part are blind to the facts which the author so articulately outlined in this article.

i think most people when confronted with the word 'jump' suppose a conscious act of movement.

i believe to even conclude there was a conscious decision, in the vast majority of cases, to 'jump' is wrong. people were 'smoked out','blown out' and 'thrown out' by others rushing for air, isn't it obvious? imagine all the toxic smoke in there. seeing the visuals, some of the 'jumpers' even tried to tie makeshift ropes with their clothes and materials to try in vain to scale down the face and hang on for dear life. some trying to flag down news copters with blazers. it is reasonable to assume the last thing they wanted to do was commit to death, in a supposed moment of lucid 'choice'. i think most of the 'jumpers' actually lost their grip while gasping for air and were eventually burned out of the building by all the searing smoke. burning up their hands. burning up of their backs.

even if it gives people comfort to believe that the 'jumpers' 'chose' their route to execution, i believe it is incorrect to say there was a real choice/option at all when you consider the duress the poor souls were under. try (i know it's unimaginable really) but do try if you may to empathise with the position of those near the windows on the floors... and then consider the supposed 'choice' when faced with heat that would melt the skin off your face.

i don't believe 'courage' even comes into it, these people should be mourned of course, but is there courage in 'jumping'/falling out rather than being burned to death in a building? even if there was 'choice' in the matters i hardly believe the word courage in describing the course of action in trying to survive over another course of action is appropriate. i think it should be assumed that the vast majority had the 'courage' as much as possible in their situations to hold on in self-preservation. the casualties of 9/11 should be respected, mourned thought of, given our attention and not be objectified and dehumanised which seems to be what most people are inclined to do. i think more people should actually try as hard as they might to empathise try and gain as much understanding of the workers in 9/11, after all they were a cross section of our community, people belonging to the general population, with 9-5 jobs. us. then only then i believe people can move on with some degree of sense on 9/11.

for the vast majority, i'm not going to generalise it to every. single. person. who fell that day - there may have been some who did have choice, before it got extremely hot and unbearable, to jump in 'despair' considering the amount of people and the general frequency of mental anxiety and depression, of suicidal tendencies in today's society... we can never tell

but it is correct to assume the general 'jumper' commited

no suicide

no 'choice'

and

that is what scares people

that things can be beyond our control



great blog


anon

 
At Tue Oct 07, 08:38:00 PM 2008, Blogger Chas said...

Anon, your English and grammar are fine. I think you understood what I was getting at.

When I try to put myself in the position these people found themselves in... it's clear they had little or no choices. They were just trying to live, to stay alive, in a situation that would not allow it. It was beyond their control, and to try and put yourself in their position... it's the kind of thing no one ever wants to face.

I worked in high rise security for years, involved in fire safety. Nothing I learned or taught could have helped the people who died in the towers; they were stranded without hope.

To imagine one's self in their situation...

Yes, it's very scary indeed.

Thanks for commenting.

 
At Fri Oct 10, 03:19:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have been....I don't know what word to use, fascinated seems like an inappropriate word. I'm hoping you understand what I mean. Anyway, this subject has captured me from the beginning. I think the reason is because of the desperation these people must've had to have to resort to such a thing. I try to imagine what they must've been going through and how they felt. I can't possibly. I, like all of America will never forget 9/11, but the images that are burned in my mind forever are the images of those poor souls who for no other reason than absolute necessity had to make an unimaginable choice. I thank you for putting your feelings about this subject which many don't discuss and giving others who feel it should be something that is not forgotten a place to put our views out there. I send my prayers out to all those left behind, and may all those who lost their lives on September 11th be at peace.

 
At Wed Dec 03, 09:56:00 AM 2008, Anonymous John M. Carter said...

I knew a girl that Graduated in my class from Landmark School in Prides Crossing Mass. She was killed when the towers fell . I still want resolution for those attacks, for what they took from us that day. I remember sitting in our old house in Fairmont, WV .I was just in shock while listening to the attack on the North Tower .I kept thinking about all the friends I had & graduated with that lived in New York. Also those who worked in that part of the City . My wifes first cousin was suppose to be on one of the planes that hit the towers on 9/11 . She was ill and couldn't be on that flight. Thank god for that or we would have lost her also.

 
At Sun Dec 14, 12:13:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't consider it suicide, those people didn't have much choice, they knew that there was no way out, and the only options of how they're lives were going to end, was either by jumping, or remain in the building and succumb to the smoke and fire. We will never forget that tragic day. God bless everyone

 
At Sun Dec 14, 03:32:00 PM 2008, Anonymous Tyler said...

Anyone who looks down on them or acts like they were making a cowardly act should be set on fire and fed to a cage full of tigers. Fucking retards. There's nothing cowardly about it. It's not like the hundreds of people who jumped planned on committing suicide after work that day. I'm sure if someone put you in an inescapable burning building you might just consider it too. Some people are so damn stupid.

 
At Sat Mar 21, 01:46:00 PM 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the first picture of the man jumping near the top of the page you see how red his face and hands are, Obviously the heat in there was so god damn intense that was there only option to cool down. They had the choice of being burned alive - suffocating - or falling and dying instantly as they hit the ground.. In some ways 'jumping' may have sounded like the better option I guess..


The thought of jumping from that height sickens me as much today as it did back then. May they all R.I.P, and hopefully, have now gone to a better place.

 
At Mon Apr 27, 09:17:00 AM 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A very powerful article and one which I hope will open the minds of others.

 
At Sun May 17, 05:08:00 PM 2009, Blogger CinnamonGirl said...

The day has never left me. I wish more people weren't numbed, now nearly 8 years after the fact. I have watched the documentaries, the newscasts now preserved on YouTube, and listened to the 911 calls made on that fateful day. I can't fathom having to make such a decision, and neither can anyone else, unless they have been put in such a situation. I think we would be hard-pressed to find out for certain, since I know of no cases of anyone who has survived a 70+ story fall. No one should ever forget that over 3000 people were MURDERED that day. And they should be reminded of the horror of that day-- yes, we should heal, but we should never, ever forget what really happened. Listen to the call made by Mr. Kevin Cosgrove, of Aon Corporation. His last moments on this earth were recorded for all to hear. If that doesn't wake people up, or make it "more real" for them after so much time passing, then nothing will. Thank you for posting. ~Heather

 
At Thu Jun 04, 09:41:00 PM 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The more I read about this horror, the more I believe that only Christianity can save the planet.

Only the love of Jesus Christ will truly unite all people. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists -- all people of other faiths need to learn this truth.

One day, I believe we all shall. We will be united as Christians. And the world will be a better place.

 
At Fri Jun 05, 10:50:00 PM 2009, Anonymous Michael Carter said...

"only Christianity can save the planet"

Please wake up and embrace reality. Religion is what caused this horror to take place. "Jesus' love" is what caused the Muslims to hate Christians in the first place (Crusades), as well as our funding & placement of tyranist government in their oil-rich countries. Please research the whole truth and knock off the knee-jerk "evil empire" reactions.

If you really want peace among men we must do away with religion. There isn't a major religion on the planet that doesn't divide people and foster hate. Aren't we a bit too educated to believe this "magic guy in the sky" crap any longer? Please have the courage to see things from a new point of view and remember that the old one led to this.

 
At Sat Jun 06, 12:24:00 AM 2009, Blogger Chas said...

Most mainstream religions have evolved over time to become more tolerant. Islam has been very slow to do so, and in many cases has not done so at all.

I've known many atheists who persist in pushing their "unbelief" with a religious fervor, to the point where atheism itself can seem to be just another religion.

All people will never be 100% in agreement about religion, atheism, or many other things. A healthy tolerance combined with mutual respect can work wonders, but it has to be cultivated. That is the work before us.

 
At Mon Jun 15, 12:41:00 AM 2009, Anonymous Dave said...

This is really informative since back in the past articles really didn't cover the "jumpers" on 9/11. This has to be the most information I have ever googled. Thanks for the blog and please answer this one question for me if you know, Chas? Did anyone ever come up with a figure of male to female ratios for these poor soles that jumped to their deaths? Just wanting more info on this subject.

 
At Mon Jun 15, 01:12:00 AM 2009, Blogger Chas said...

Dave,
I did this post a while back, and I read a lot of stuff, this is only a small summary of some of what I read.

The information you ask about may well have been there, but I don't recall those figures in particular. Someone may have them, but I can't remember.

 
At Thu Jun 18, 12:10:00 AM 2009, Anonymous Anonymous said...

you are right thse people didnt jump to commit suicide they were forced from the intense heat,fire,and smoke i also belive thught that they knew they wouldnt come out of those towers alive i believe that they jumped because they knew that they could die quickly or a slow painfull death but i would never believe that they jumped because suicide played a roll in this that is a lie in my opinion those were victims if they hadnt gone they would be alive today knowing that if they did go they would most likely have perished by being forced to use the window as an exit they probaly knew that once they jump there was no chance of survival but would be better than burning up or being crushed by tons of building materials.

 

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